BYU Football: P5 inclusion still not that important

I said it a year ago, and I’ll say it again: BYU does not need to get into a Power 5 conference.

And it’s a good thing, too, because after this week’s news that conferences will be able to have conference championship games no matter how many teams they have, BYU’s already miniscule chances of getting into the Big 12 were effectively eliminated.

In case you missed my article last year, here is the jist of it: P5 and G5 teams don’t have that much more access to the big-money bowls than BYU does, so BYU doesn’t need to sell the farm to get in. Each year, most P5 conference champs will be in the playoff, leaving those conferences’ dedicated New Year’s 6 game slots to be chosen at-large. Thus, most of the time BYU will have just as good of a shot at one of those coveted spots as any P5 team.

My position has been bolstered by the scheduling miracles BYU athletic director Tom Holmoe has been performing for the past year. In the near future, BYU has games scheduled against Nebraska, UCLA, Michigan, Mizzouri, LSU, Mississippi State, Stanford, Arizona State, and West Virginia, to name a few. With these types of schedules, there’s no reason BYU can’t be considered for an at-large NY6 bid if BYU can win a bunch of games. Sure, that’s a big “if,” but BYU’s going to have to win a bunch of games to get NY6 bids even if its in a P5 conference.

Before you P5-or-bust fans start throwing things at your computer screens and chucking your smart phones, please understand that I do want BYU to join a P5 conference. It’s the easiest way to schedule games (especially quality home games), gain respect, and, most importantly, earn the kind of money necessary to build an elite program. Utah’s recent success in both football and basketball is a testament to how quickly a good “mid-major” program can turn the corner when the P5 TV dollars start pouring in.

But that’s not going to happen to BYU any time in the near future. Most conference TV deals have around 8-10 years left before they are up for re-negotiation and, as I mentioned above, the only incentive for the Big 12 to add teams–the NCAA championship game rules–is likely gone next year. So BYU fans have to stop obsessing about sitting at the cool kids’ table and start realizing that P5 inclusion is not the end-all-be-all of college football.

About the author

Andy Kartchner

I have a Ph.D. in sports analytics. No I don't. But I do have a law degree. And if there's one thing I learned in law school, it's how to write about sports.

I am Big Bro. My brother, Aaron (a.k.a. Little Bro), and I make up the Sports Bros, your one-stop shop for everything BYU sports.

  • Ironweed

    BYU is in an untenable position. The stakes have risen, and BYU will not rise to the challenge. The athletic programs will dwindle into mediocrity. BYU inherently cannot recruit the necessary talent to succeed at a P5 level. I’ll say it here first; BYU will never get to a New Years 6 bowl, not to even mention win a national championship in football.

    • Realistic Optimist

      Ironweed Ute,

      I thought that with all the recent success of the Utes, you would have grown out of the need to push BYU down with your words. Having said that,

      I believe that if the powers that be at BYU, choose to make the necessary push as I stated in my post above, there will be nothing to stop BYU.

      If they, the powers that be, at BYU, are not willing to make that necessary commitment, than I will have to agree with you.

      The time has come when just wanting something really bad, is not enough.

      One must be willing to go through many of the painful growing pains, in order to grow.

      Part of those very painful growing pains, will include, at first, not to have enough good home games in order to get enough P5 games on the schedule. This will be costly as the fan base for home games will probably drop significantly.

      Another part of those very painful growing pains will probably mean that instead of trying for 12-0 seasons and ending up with 10-2 seasons or 9-3 seasons, at first, we may be lucky to have, with the new SOS, 6-6 seasons.

      For the fans that only want to win, and don’t care if winning is a FCS team or a low level mid major team, this will not be acceptable and they will try to stop the necessary growth that requires all of those nasty growing pains.

      For the rest of us, I think the sacrifice, and perhaps humiliation at first, will be well worth it if we can be a significant player in a P5 conference.

    • natedog1

      So when BYU dominated in the 80’s and has had great success since then, what is the inherent recruiting problem that even though we’ve been wildly successfull makes in so that we’re guaranteed to fail? Ironweed, you’re not the first to say that BYU won’t make it to a NY6 bowl. Cris B, Naval Vet, Motorbike and the many other trollers have already “boldly” predicted that kind of thing. I’ll have the tobasco sause or ketsup ready for your crow when it’s time to ingest.

      • Realistic Optimist

        natedog
        The utes have already made it to the pac 12. Why do you continue with all the apparent hate. This hate does not seem as highly educated as most University rivalries. Try taking a less from such rivalries i.e. USC/UCLA. With them, it’s a fun educated rivalry on the most part. Why must we act stupid with our rivalry vs the Utes. I think that probably the only ones that think this is still a rivalry are the BYU fans. I think that once the Utes got into the Pac 12, they in their own minds shed us from their ranks.

        Having said that, I think that we will learn from our (Now) big brother from the North. I truly believe that we will bite the bullet. We will pay the price. We will make the sacrafice. We will go through the growing pains that will be required of us, as did the Utes their fist couple of seasons. And— because we do suffer the humiliation, and lose some games with our new SOS, like the Utes, we at BYU will earn our respect and become true rivals again. We will be significant. I can guarantee this, because if we are not significant, our program will die, and no administrator wants this to happen on his/her watch.

      • Realistic Optimist

        natedog1,

        We are suffering a temporary set back in large proportion right now, but we will recover.

        No administration will want to be in charge when we fail, and we will fail if we don’t right the ship very soon within the next few years.

        So yes, this set back is temporary.

        The powers that be, see the urgency, in my opinion, to make the necessary changes, what ever those changes might be, in order to get us to the absolutely necessary next level, and into a P5 conference.
        Some of those changes has already begun.

        Football, as we have known it, at BYU, will come to an end, if we can’t get into a P5 conference.

        It will be too expensive, under the new rules, paying the athletes, and other additional cost, without the income that the P5 conference teams get to cover all of that additional cost.

        Our $8-10 million per year that we get from ESPN just won’t cut it, compared to the average pay out of $25 million that we could be getting as a member of a P5 conference.

        That said $8-10 million as an independent is far better than the average pay out of $1-1.25 million average of a G5 team gets from TV pay outs, but not enough to keep up with the average of $25 million per team average for those P5 conference teams. The rich keep getting richer while the poor keeps getting more poor.

        So, yes, to all of the complainers that say, it is all about money. Yes it is.
        So now that we are put into that position, our choice seems to be “if you can’t beat them, join them” I am not yet really ready to quit.

        No administrator will allow this to happen on his/her watch at BYU.

        Negative things started to happen to us, you, me, BYU fans, teams, coaches, and administrators in hugh amounts that we were not prepared for. We should have seen it coming, but we were in denial.

        We watched our comfortable structure crumble around us.

        Our rival, Utah started getting and winning not one but 2 BCS Bowls.

        They got accepted into the Pac 12 leaving us behind with the mid majors in the MWC.

        About the same time, another rival and peer, TCU, got BCS bowl games and won them and left us for the Big 12.

        Boise State from the WAC, had great success with BCS Bowl games, Now they came up to the MWC. We use to think we were above them.

        Houston got a BCS bowl.

        Heck to some of us that thought Hawaii was miles below us got a BCS bowl. They didn’t do well in that bowl game, but they got a bowl.

        We looked around and all of those teams that we thought that we were equal to or better than, got better than us and advanced, leaving us behind in a mid major conference, the MWC.

        We could not handle that! We panicked ! Under the same circumstances, I would vote to do the same thing again.

        We wanted to be accepted into a P5 conference but the invitation was not forth coming.

        Our Peers have left us behind.

        This was not and still is not acceptable.

        We went Independent. I would do it again. It was better than staying in a mid major conference. Our self respect was tested beyond the ability for many of us to handle.

        Independence has proven to be far better than being lost in the crowd in the MWC or in any G5 conference. But, under the new financial rules of the NCCA, we just financially can not last much longer than 3 years as an Independent.

        The G5 Alabama team had to quit football a couple weeks ago because they can not compete financially under the new financial rules. There will be many others, if not all, that will eventually quit, if not part of a P5 team. The financial new cost just is impossible to keep up with if you are not a P5 member.

        Maybe that is what all the P5 conferences want, Maybe they want to get rid of all of the pesky Mid majors and leave football watching for only the big teams that now call themselves P5 teams.

        We at BYU either have to belong or we will be among those that are left out.

        If anyone has a positive idea that would be better, I would love to hear it. If you just want to complain, I would rather you not reply.

      • Ironweed

        Mr. Optimist. I am not a Utah fan. I never will be. I could not stand myself if I were. I attended BYU, and have been a lifelong fan. It has given me plenty of heartache, disappointment, mingled with brief points of ecstasy. I blame my father. Anyways, What BYU says it wants to do, and what it is actually doing are a contradiction. I think the admin is; like you say, very interested in investing in athletics. The recent events have suggested as much, (I.E. the new COA. The new basketball practice facility). The big problem is, BYU is not able to recruit the athletes needed to compete and win at the highest levels of men’s major sports. Is BYU P-5 quality. Kinda. Do I think BYU is being discriminated against? Yes. Are we hearing the real reasons why BYU is not in a power 5? No. Do I think BYU needs to prove more than the average P5 program that it belongs? Yes. Do I think it is fair? No.

        More than anything, I am tired of BYU being embarrassed, and embarrassing itself. I think it is futile to continue believing that the Y can win, and win consistently at the highest levels. BYU is good, don’t get me wrong. But they are not great. I truly hope BYU can make it, and prove naysayers like myself wrong.

      • Realistic Optimist

        Ironweed, don’t be so hard on yourself. BYU is caught in the middle between being a mid-major and a P5 type team. Yes, as an independent, we are now accepted as a P5 Independent, but that is for programing purposes only for the good of the P5 teams that need to program other P5 teams outside of their own conference, but that is where it ends.

        We do not have a P5 conference and we do not get the money or the respect of the P5 conference teams.

        The P5 team athletes have a greater advantage of getting into the NFL is they are great players. That is why the great players choose the P5 conference teams instead of us. Now that TCU and Utah Utes are in P5 conferences, they will start getting more great athletes than before. If and when, we ever make it to a P5 conference, than more of the better athletes will be willing to gamble to come to our University. Until than, we will continue to get the left overs.

        Since 2013 we have been trying hard. We are making progress. The progress is very slow, but it is progress. We must all be patient. What do you blame your father for?

        I want to respond to some of your quotable statements:

        “ Are we hearing the real reasons why BYU is not in a power 5? No. “
        I would be interested in hearing what you think the real reasons are???

        “ Do I think BYU needs to prove more than the average P5 program that it belongs? Yes.’
        I am interested in hearing that BYU has to prove more than the average P5 programs that it belongs.
        It is my opinion, that we need to mature more, players, fans, and coaches alike in our own personal attitude and try to be much, much, much more less arrogant with our comments.

        “Do I think it is fair? No.”
        Why not?

        “More than anything, I am tired of BYU being embarrassed, and embarrassing itself. “
        Me too.
        I think that if we stop making arrogant type comments to other coaches and fans of other teams that we play, including, but not limited to Utah Utes and others on our schedule, we will not have anything to be embarrassed about.

        We need to get ready for all 12 games of the season, and not just the first big P5 game that we play. We need to get ready for the Post 2015 season Bowl as well. We need to coach at the highest level for the full season and put family outings on hold until after the season. We need to let the players that need to rest and heal, do just that ,while the rest of the team and the back up, continues to work hard with all of the allowable days to train. Coaches and players can not take time to rest and heal until after the season, except for those individuals that need to, allowing their back up to continue with the work outs. If we do all of this, there will be nothing to be embarrassed about

        “I think it is futile to continue believing that the Y can win, and win consistently at the highest levels.”
        We never have at the highest level, but we did great in the 80’s and first part of the 90’s against the mid majors that we played. Since 2013, we have made great progress in our SOS.

        “BYU is good, don’t get me wrong. But they are not great.”
        We are working hard since 2013 to improve our schedule. That is a good start.
        WE need to not think of football as #5 or 6, in order of importance, but in our fantasy world of BYU football season, our fantasy must be that football is #1. (Awe yes, in our non fantasy world, we are all aware of what is #1,2,3,4,5 really is without being told by the coach.

        If the players start believing in our football fantasy world, that football is #1 during the football season, they will start playing better with that new importance attached to it. As long as they buy into the real world, and not the fantasy world, and allow football to be no more important than #5-6, than their playing will show that football is not just that important and we will never rise to the greatness that we want to. It just won’t be that important. Fantasy is good. We should take time for it.

        ” I truly hope BYU can make it, and prove naysayers like myself wrong.”

        BYU can make it with the right attitude adjustment.

      • Ironweed

        How old are you? Let me guess, you were born in the 1980’s

      • Realistic Optimist

        Ironweed, you asked my age and guessed
        that I am 35.
        Now may I ask your age. My guess is that you were born in 1998. Age 17.

        Actually I am a very young, very active, very healthy, and very self sufficient 80 year old
        born in the middle of the great depression in 1935. My first school year at BYU was 1953-54.
        I have been a die-hard fan that loves my Cougars, every since that 1953-54 school year,

        You have the advantage of being a teen ager, and with all of your experience, you now know everything
        and anyone that does not agree with you is a fool.

        The reason that I was able to guess your age, is that as one matures, one learns that if you want to criticize,
        someone, you had better, in an intelligent way, offer a better idea on how to get something accomplished.
        You obviously have not yet reached that level of maturity.

      • Realistic Optimist

        Ironweed.

        I like your guess of having be born in the 1980’s. You make me feel young. Try 1935.

        You think that I am stupid and imature. I may be. Possible my students may have
        helped me reach my decline before retirement. I have been retirement since 1994.

        I have taught both General and Special education. I have taught grades 3-6 in general
        education. I have taught grades 7-8 in home teaching for both General and Special Education.
        I have taught grades 4-12 in special Education where I was head of the department. I did substitute
        teaching at Cal State University at Los Angeles. For two summers at the Pasadenda Campus on
        Howard and Breezy Streets, I taught at what is now known as Point Loma University the subjects of
        Basic Encounters and Interaction Analysis, but to you, I sound like a kid born in the 1980s that doesn’t
        know anything. Teach me. I am always willing an anxious to learn from someone intelligent enough.

        Let’s not challenge unless it is for the good of our Cougars. Let’s try to be friends, if possible.

      • Realistic Optimist

        Iron weed. What is it about your dad that you blame? Why do you think that anyone would expect that you might be a Ute fan?

        We all have the same desire for our BYU Cougars to expand and become all that they are capable of becoming. Some of us express it in one way while others expree it is a different way. One way is totally safe and has universal approval from LDS members through out the world. The other ways are far less safe and often brings much criticism. I thing that both ways are important and necessary, while one way, is always giving total 100% approval even when things are going terrible and needing fixing. The other way, that often draws much criticism points out those things that need improving in order to get our Cougars in the position where they can achieve all that they are capable of achieving.

        If Dad is to blame for making you see things critically and objectively, instead of Polly Anna and subjective, than that is a good thing and Dad should be praised and not blamed.
        If you feel guilty for seeing things the way they are and hope for changes that should make our team what they should be, than that is no reason to feel that others will think of you as a possible Ute. Instead, they will see the maturity in you that strives forever to make things better.

      • Ironweed

        Tongue in cheek, C’mon! He is an avid fan. We tend to follow our parents. No?

      • Realistic Optimist

        Iron weed, there is much of what you say, that I agree with. There is some that I don’t understand. There is very little that I disagree with. I do not understand your reply:

        “Tongue in cheek, C’mon! He is an avid fan. We tend to follow our parents. No?”

        Let me dissect our statements and see where our communication broke down.

        you;
        1. I am NOT a Utah fan. I never would be. I could not stand myself if I were.
        me: Why do you think that anyone would expect that you might be a
        Ute fan?

        If you feel guilty for seeing things the way they are and hope for
        changes that should make our team what they should be, than
        that is no reason to feel that others will think of you as a
        possible Ute. Instead, they will see the maturity in you that
        strives forever to make things better.

        2. “ I blame my father”
        me: What is it about your dad that you blame?
        If Dad is to blame for making you see things critically and
        objectively, instead of Polly Anna and subjective, than that is a
        good thing and Dad should be praised and not blamed.

        you:
        3. Do I think BYU is being discriminated against? Probably.
        me: I did not respond, however I do NOT feel that we are being
        discriminated against. Instead, I think that we need to grow
        and play by the rules of a P5 conference and play at least 9 P5
        teams each season before being thought of and respected as
        a P5 team. Needing to play by the same rules is not
        discrimination. We are doing much better in the 2016 season
        with 6 P5 teams on our schedule. We are improving, but we
        still have a ways to go.

        you:
        4. Are we hearing the real reasons why BYU is not in a power 5?
        No.
        me: I did not respond, however, I do believe that we need to
        improve, socially, politically, and abide by the same rules of each
        conference that we want to become a part of. To clarify, I believe
        that we should act more grateful to be considered to be in a
        certain conference instead of having the attitude that the
        preferred conference should feel lucky to have us with all of our
        rich history and assets. I believe that we should never again
        interfere with the voting process that is not in our own state. I.e.
        Utah’s interference with California’s Prop 8. We made more
        enemies than friends. We lost more respect than we gained in
        the opinion of Californians. I do believe that if we want to be
        thought of as a P5 team, and get the respect of a P5 team, we must
        play by the same rules as a P5 team and shed ourselves of any
        resemblance of being a G5 team.

        you:
        5. Do I think BYU needs to prove more than the average P5 program that it belongs? Yes. Do I think it is fair? No.

        me: I think this was a typo. I think that you meant to ask, “Do we need to prove ourselves more than the average G5 team? Your answer was yes. You followed up with, “Do I think it is fair? your answer was NO.

        I believe, like you do, that we do need to prove ourselves more than the average G5 team if we want to get into a P5 conference which most fans and players do want to do.

        On the other hand, if we are happy being a mid major for ever, than there is no need to improve. We can take the easy way out but I don’t believe that this is what we as fans, as players, and as a University are all about.

        You stated that you do not think this is fair. I would be interested in your reasoning that we should not have to work hard to get into a P5 conference and play by the same rules that all teams in P5 conferences must play by.

        you:
        6. What BYU says it wants to do, and what it is actually doing are a
        contradiction.

        me: If your thinking is as follows, I agree with you.
        We want to be in a P5 conference, but we put self imposed
        limits on whom we may hire as a head coach. Instead of
        requiring that the AD be a LDS member in good standing and
        watch over the head coach and his assistants as to not allow
        them to embarrass the Church, we instead, require that the HC
        be LDS in good standing with the Church. This eliminates all
        the coaches of the quality of Pete Carroll, Nick Saben, Urban
        Myers and other quality coaches like the ones at Baylor,
        Boston College, TCU, and Notre Dame to mention a few. That
        is only half the problem. The other half of the problem is that
        we are only willing to pay for a coach half the amount that a
        quality coach can get at any P5 conference team. On top of
        that, being a LDS requirement and receiving less than half the
        competitive pay. We also have the Honor Code that we are so
        proud of but is a contributing factor to our lack of advancement.
        There are so many other self imposed limits we put on
        ourselves, i.e. No Sunday Play.

        In most cases, I feel that we have many of the same frustrations as you. I believe that if you reread what you posted and re read that which I replied, you may want to change your reply to me.. There is no need and there is no reason, to not be happy with each other.

      • natedog1

        Let it go Mr. Unrealistic Pessimist. My post will be much shorter than your novel, but just as thoughtful. I hope and still believe that BYU can compete at the highest levels. There are ebbs and flows to success. Miami, Tennessee, etc. have been world class programs that are now down in the dumps. BYU was there at the end of the Crowton years. We have been both up and down lately. We have one to the top 5 winning records in the last 30-40 yrs! That’s incredible. We still win 8-10 games per year. That’s pretty good. We’re not winning a national championship in the next 2 yrs. but my goodness, we can still be good. I think BYU recruiting has been mediocre and I”m not sure if that’s just the nature of the beast now days or if Bronco has just been a mediocre recruiter. He’s certainly not an unbelievable recruiter. Success breeds success. The answer is to win. That solves every problem. I think too many BYU fans are so insecure with themselves that any success that happens up North makes them wet themselves with jealousy. I could care less what happens at the U. Witt almost signed as the HC at BYU. Maybe his recruiting and style would have brought BYU much more success. I think it would have. But my point is we still have a good program and good players. I just don’t understand all of the doom and gloom. You and Ironweed have bought in to the fairytales from up north that the BYU sports program will fold. Maybe it will. . . And maybe there will be a nuclear holocaust that eradicates mankind. . . maybe. The sports program is going nowhere. The contract with ESPN will be renewed in a few years and my guess is that it will be for at least double what they are paying now. There are so many moving parts that I just don’t see how you can predict doom and gloom so boldly. Maybe both you and Ironweed need to watch some more BYU TV and “see the good in the world.”

      • Realistic Optimist

        Okay natedog 1 I ignore you.
        You ignore me. We should not reply to each other’s comments anymore.

    • RohoSombrero

      I unfortunately agree. We’ve made the decision to be mediocre by insisting on the outdated, soviet style, ‘honor code’ that forces people to act out values they don’t endorse. We *could* win, but it would mean secularizing the place in ways that I fear are untenable for most BYU fans. We can’t even get the top notch LDS players now that Utah has totally eclipsed us with P5 status. No one wants to be treated like an eternal child at the age of 18 or 19 so if you’re good enough, why would anyone choose to go to BYU over Utah, which has basically the same support structure for LDS kids without all the self righteous paranoia? Time for a renaissance at BYU, but I don’t see it happening anytime soon.

    • Realistic Optimist

      Ironweed, I believe that as long as our players believe that football is no higher in importance than #5 or 6 in the scheme of things, their playing, like you say, will always suffer.
      It just won’t be high enough in importance to be focused on football. They will be focused more on the other 1,2,3,4,5 things to them that are more important than football.

      If we are to survive, we must realize that there is the real world and there is the world of fantasy. We need, during the football season, to put football into that fantasy world and allow ourselves as fans, as coaches, and as athletes to fantasize that football is #1 in importance during the season and keep our focus #1on football all through the fantasy season and allow football to be important enough for our players to excel. When top notch players with 4 or 5 stars attached to their names, see that football is more important to us, just maybe they might be more willing to gamble their career on us.

  • Realistic Optimist

    Andy,

    Like you, I too have a PhD in Sports Analysis and Broadcasting, Not really. I am not an attorney either, but I do have a couple in my family. I am the Realistic Optimist.

    Unfortunately, for the team, the fans, and myself, I do agree with you and your educated opinion that it will not be anytime soon that BYU gets into a P5 conference. I agree that the recent decision of letting all P5 conferences, regardless of the number of teams in that conference, have a play off, all but kills any hopes that the Big 12 will want us, BYU, anytime soon.

    I have also lived long enough to remember the history that shows us that just when we think that something is going to happen, it doesn’t and when we are almost certain that something will not happen, it does.

    I watched the Pac 8 add our peers, Arizona and Arizona State from the WAC to form a new Pac 10. That through me totally off guard. Why didn’t they choose BYU or Utah instead???

    I watched the Pac 10 add one of our Peers, our rival, Utah Utes, along with Colorado to form the New Pac 12. Why didn’t they take BYU and Utah as a package?

    I watched #4 TCU with their only loss, being to Baylor, being bypassed by #5 Ohio State for the Big 4 play off.

    I watched the grab for the best players of the Big 12 to join the Pac 10/12. It didn’t happen, but it could have. We watched all kinds of things happen that were not expected by many of us to happen, like the Big East no longer being a power conference. Like key teams of the Big 12, moving up or sideways, away from the Big 12. I remember lots and lots of talk about 16 team power conferences that have not yet happened, but it could happen.

    By point is this:

    If and when, there is an opening, BYU must be ready for that opening with no questions about which team should be chosen.

    This is what must be done, in my opinion, if BYU wants to be the Chosen One when the time comes around again:

    Do everything as though you are truly a Power 5 team.

    That means, if the power teams must schedule 9 P5 teams for each season, than BYU must schedule 9 P5 teams.

    If a P5 conference has a rule that they can never schedule a FCS team in any season, than BYU must not schedule any FCS team in any season.

    It P5 teams have any other requirements or restrictions, than BYU must adopt those same requirements and restrictions. If a P5 conference team must maintain a certain level of SOS that they may not fall below, than BYU must do the same.

    Not as much for the first 1,2,3 season, but thereafter, BYU must have winning seasons with this new strength of schedule, and the goal should be after that, to be one of the best, if not the best, P5 team in the nation.

    If everything that BYU does, is P5 and nothing that BYU does is less than P5, than BYU will be the only real choice for expansion.

    Someday, it wil happen. Will BYU be ready?

    • punsalot

      You should remove the realist portion from your title. BYU doesn’t need to schedule 9 P5 teams to have as good a schedule a a P5 team. There are a number of G5 teams that are better than many P5 teams, and BYU is already scheduling and playing them.

      • Realistic Optimist

        Punsalot, If you don’t want the same kind of a schedule that a P5 conference team has, and the respect of a P5 team that goes with it, and the opportunities that come around as a result of being a P5 team, vs a lack of opportunity being a Mid Major team or less, I would agree with you.

        We could probably play 12 FCS teams a season, win all of those games by very large margins and tell the world how great we are for having the most continuous winning seasons and bowl games in the nation. Maybe we can even schedule a FCS team to play in a bowl for us to defeat. We can also remind everyone of all of our proud successes 24-30 years ago. We can all be sooooo proud. (not me).

        I will be proud when we have a winning season, even if it is 6-6 when we earn it by playing as many P5 teams in a season as required of a P5 team in a P5 conference.

        I believe that in the case of the SEC, The ACC, the Pac 12, the Big 10, and the Big 12, that number is 9 P5 teams per season that must be played. What ever the actual number is,
        1-12, that is the number that we, as an Independent P5 team, for programing purposes, need to schedule for ourselves. We either want to be thought of as a P5 team or we don’t. We can’t have it both ways. We can’t just want that which we want, but instead, we must earn that which we want.

        If you have any information that is different, please post it. f you don’t know, and don’t believe what is posted here, check with ESPN for your own personal information.

        Thank you for your reply.

        P.S. I think that once we go through the growing pains that it will take to EARN the position of an Independent P5 team, for programing purposes, we can grow to be as good as any major significant team in the Nation. But than again, I AM the REALISTIC optimist.

      • punsalot

        Yes all of the P5 teams play 9 other P5 teams every year, but that doesn’t mean that they are all tough games. BYU isn’t playing the P5 cellar dwellars (outside of Virginia) and they’re also playing teams from the G5 conferences that are at the top their leagues.
        I’d be happy if BYU never played another FCS school like Wagner ever again, but let me know when the SEC teams quits scheduling teams like the The Citadel (South Carolina), UNC Charlotte (Kentucky), Austin Peay (Vanderbilt), Charleston Southern (Alabama), Northwestern State (MSU), UT Martin (Ole MIss and Arkansas), Jacksonville St (Texas AM, and Tennesee ), Southeast Missouri State (Missouri), and Southern (Georgia). In fact, uncharacteristically, Florida is the only SEC team that isn’t scheduled to play a FCS team in 2015, but they are playing those power house FBS teams FAU and NMSU.

        BYU’s 2015 is already as tough as many P5 schools play.

        Comparing BYUs schedule to that of national champion tOSU below (not chronologically). Let me know which schedule is more daunting:

        BYU………………………………… tOSU
        @Nebraska……………………….Michigan State
        @Michigan…………………………@Michigan
        @UCLA……………………………..Penn State
        @Missouri………………………….Minnesota
        Boise State…………………………@Virginia Tech
        @Utah State………………………..Northern Illinois
        ECU……………………………………@Rutgers
        Cincinatti……………………………..Maryland
        Fresno State………………………..Western Michigan
        @San Jose State…………………..@Illinois
        UConn…………………………………@Indiana
        Wagner………………………………..Hawaii

        Yes I will concede that Hawaii is better than Wagner, but Missouri is better than Minnesota, Boise State is better than Virgina Tech, and UCLA is better than Penn State. All of the others are pretty much a wash. Yes, until they prove otherwise by beating a team with a pulse, Illinois and Indiana really are on the same level as UConn and San Jose State.

      • Realistic Optimist

        Punsalot, “Boise State is better than Virgina Tech”,

        Except for an occasional off year by Va. Tech, REALLY?????

        As I said, in many post on all sites, it is a process of growing pains that we must go through, and being the optimist that I am, I do believe that not only eventually, but that we have already acknowledge that we really must go through the growing pains and the process has already begun starting with the 2013 and than the 2015 seasons and beyond to 20027.

        Regarding the SOS: Growing pains come about in one step after another. We don’t start running. We just start.

        The first thing on our list is to get the same amount of P5teams on our schedule that are required of P5 teams in P5 conferences, be that 1-12, and most will agree that number is 9.

        The second step is to make sure we have no FCS teams on our schedule. (This is no longer allowed for P5 teams.)
        (It is no loner acceptable for P5 teams) Check with ESPN !!!

        The third step is to increase our (SOS)
        A S W E B E C O M E C A P A B L E of increasing our SOS.

        Yes there are great teams, good teams, and not so good teams in each of the P5 conferences.
        (Pac 12 Colorado? Let me see, which category would they fit in the Pac 12 or even the Big 12 before)

        The fourth step is to not brag about us being a P5 team until we have finally,
        gradually,
        not all in the first season,
        but over the next few seasons
        or perhaps more,
        with the increased SOS,
        until such time that we are on Par
        with the middle,
        not bottom or top,
        but middle of all P5 teams.

        P.S. Our brother up North is an excellent example on how to go through the growing pains, and within a few years, reach the level of respect that they can be proud of their achievements in the Pac 12. BYU can and will do the same.
        I know. it.

        A-men.

      • punsalot

        Your brothers up north have had one winning season since their transition. Let’s see if they can maintain it. I’m skeptical.

        Nine years out of ten playing Boise State will do more for BYU’s SOS than Va Tech. I don’t see the need to schedule 9 P5 teams just to say we schedule P5 teams. Especially when there are quality non-P5 teams that are consistently better. I’m not worried about BYU improving. Being able to watch them more consistently is already an improvement, and I’m confident that their play will improve.

        BYU is already on par with a mid-level P5 teams, and their SOS has already improved dramatically from their WAC and MWC days, and for 2015 is on Par with many of the better P5 teams which get to feast on the bottom dwellers of their conference each year.

        “The second step is to make sure we have no FCS teams on our schedule. (This is no longer allowed for P5 teams.)”

        I’m all for that too, but really???? Have you told the SEC it is no longer allowed? Florida hasn’t scheduled an FCS team since 2012, but they had one on the schedule every year before that and they are the only SEC team not playing an FCS team in 2015.

        You seem to have a skewed view of the football landscape. Guess what? Scheduling Kansas will do nothing for BYU’s SOS. Scheduling Northern Illinois is a better bet of playing a quality opponent that will improve BYU’s SOS than playing a team like Northwestern. You would be hard pressed to schedule teams like Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Kansas, Wake Forest, etc because they need to get as many automatic wins OOC as they can if they want to be bowl eligible. That leaves BYU balancing their schedule with quality non-P5 teams that actually do more for BYU than scheduling bottom dweller P5 teams.

      • Realistic Optimist

        Dear Punsalot,

        One thing that I like about this site is that we are all given an opportunity to voice our opinion.

        Our opinions, differ so much that we have no common ground for debate.

        I refuse to argue, but I love to discuss possibilities. When one wants to debate for the sake of debating, and not for the good of the team, I lose interest.

      • punsalot

        How on earth is any of this discussion “for the good of the team”? I think you overestimate the importance of this forum.

      • Realistic Optimist

        Punsalot, I hereby end our useless discussion.
        I do not wish to lower the standards of this site by arguing with you.

        Instead, i would rather have intelligent exchange of ideas with those that have some positive suggestions for the advancement of our beloved, BYU Cougars.

        So, end of our discussion.

      • RohoSombrero

        I think Boise State’s record for over a decade proves they are a better team than Va Tech. They showed me last year how much talent they really have. They were one of the best, if not the best, teams we played all year. It was really the only game where we were completely out matched.

      • Realistic Optimist

        Punsalot, I quote: “ Nine years out of ten playing Boise State will do more for BYU’s SOS than Va Tech.”

        Again Sir, I respectfully disagree.
        Yes, I do agree that Boise State is probably one of the best G5 teams in the Nation and they have had a few years that would rival any of the seller dwellers of each of the P5 conferences, but except for very bad off years, which are few, for Va. Tech,
        Boise State is not in the same league as Va. Tech. Not even close.

        I quote again: “ I don’t see the need to schedule 9 P5 teams just to say we schedule P5 teams.”

        Punsalot, I am still trying to be respectful, but I do think that you should do much more study on this subject before making this kind of a statement. You are showing the world, as it pertains to this blogging site, that you do not have a clue about what you are talking about.

        Nobody is suggesting that we play any number or P5 teams just so we can say that we are playing P5 teams.

        Instead, we are needing to play the same amount of P5 teams that are required of teams in P5 conferences if indeed, we will be prepared to be invited into a P5 conference the next time there is an opening. There is plenty of competition out there to fill an empty spot for a P5 opening. The team that is the best prepared
        in all areas, will get that vacancy.

        We need to be in a P5 conference, (financially speaking), if we are to survive as a College football team under the new rules governing finances,and this is the main reason why we must become a member of a P5 conference. After that first need, we think of things like being relevant, being respected, and having more exciting games to play.

        The G5 team of Alabama has already had to quit football a couple weeks ago, because financially, under the new rules, they could no longer compete financially.

        If we say an Independent much longer than 3 more years. we may need, financially, to follow the lead of that G5 Alabama team that just had to quit.

      • Realistic Optimist

        Punsalot:
        Nobody said that all the P5 teams, 1-12 that we play, which should be the 9 teams like all other P5 teams are now required to play, has o be the ranked P5 teams.

        Nobody said those P5 teams that we play have to even be on the top half of their conferences.

        The only thing said, is that for (starters), we must start playing the same number of P5 teams per season as all the other P5 teams are required to play, if indeed, we do want to be a true Independent P5 team, like say ND or any P5 team that is in a Pr conference.

      • Realistic Optimist

        Punsalot,

        You asked to let you know when the change would come about
        that some of the P5 conferences teams will stop scheduling Patsie teams. Thank you for the opportunity to let you know.

        It is since the post 2014 season’s post season P4 Bowl Play Offs.
        (TCU/Boise State/Ohio Sate Scenario) is what brought about a clarification of the new rules where SOS can not tolerate Patsy teams, if one has any hope at all of getting into a P4 play off, which is the only possible way of getting a shot at a NC.

      • Realistic Optimist

        Punsalot,

        I respectfully disagree. I am not being argumentative. Instead, I am presenting some facts that you may not be aware of. Respectfully, I would like to bring you up on some of those facts.

        1. Starting in 2016, we will be in the top 10% of the Universities that will be paying our athletes under the new rules. If we don’t, those would be,
        BYU athletes, will go where, that they will be getting paid which will set us back even further behind.

        2. I am correcting or updating information that I gave in a previous post.

        I said above that teams, 10 of them, in the Big 12, each get about $2 million dollars per year for the conference TV rights. ($200 million for the conference to be divided by 10 teams = $20 million per team per year.) The actual average is $25 million per year per team with the range being between $20 million and 28 million per team.

        As an Independent, with ESPN, we get between $8-10 million per year. That is far less than half of what we would be getting as a P5 team.

        The MWC gets around $1-1.25 million per year. So yes, as an independent, we do much better than if we were in a G5 conference but not nearly as well as if we were in a P5 conference.

        Our HC has told us that we must get into a P5 conference within the next 3 years. (Yes, financially speaking, this is a must if we are to survive financially). Our AD has told us that we can not survive as an Independent, under this new Financial rules of college football much longer than 3 years.

        So, Punsalot, while I can understand your wishes, it just can not happen under the new College Football rules and the additional need for the financing of those rules that are required.

        I am, the Realistic Optimistic. It is you, respectfully speaking, that needs to get educated in the sporting news before you criticize those that are.

        Let’s be friends.

  • roboto

    @john_packard:disqus BYU already played in a New Year’s 6 bowl years ago and they already won a NC. Sure it wasn’t called that at the time, but you’re already wrong. I agree they won’t get there again with Bronco at the helm, but when BYU finally gets the right coach again for the job, they’ll get back there. Saying BYU won’t ever compete again at the top is like saying Texas will never compete again for a NC.

    • Realistic Optimist

      Ironweed,

      I remember when every year we went to the Holiday Bowl and played major P5 type teams, but thought that bowl was not good enough for us.

      Next, I remember when every year, we went to the Las Vegas Bowl. They were even willing to rename that bowl as the BYU Cougar Bowl. We were not satisfied just playing the #4-5 team of the Pac 10 each year.

      Now we are never sure what bowl we will get next and what mid major team we will be playing.

      A lesson to be learned is that we should never burn any of our bridges and we may need them to get back to where we were before we became dissatisfied.

      • RohoSombrero

        Right, and how many of those Holiday Bowl games did we win? I’ll bet we have a losing record. I remember thinking that BYU was such a great passing team that no one could stop them. Then we would finally get a good opponent and it was always a struggle to score and to win. Finally I began to put together the obvious. Maybe were not as good as we think we are.

      • Realistic Optimist

        RohoSombrro,

        Those years at the Holiday Bowl were our Glory Years of the 1980’s under the coaching of Level Edwards, with the likes of

        Robby Bosco, Steve Young, Jim MacMann and some of our other greatest Quarter Backs.

        Our record at the Holiday Bowl is quite good. A couple of our most memorable games there was the Miracle Bowl vs. SMU when we came from 3 touchdowns behind, losing to SMU at half time only to come back after the half time break to win the game with Jim Mac Mann as our Quarter Back. For me, this was the most exciting game that we ever played.

        The other most exciting game, at the Holiday Bowl was our National Championship Game with Robbie Bosco at Quarter Back.

        Other exciting games for me, when or lose, where ever they are played are vs. P5 type teams. I will always remember the 59-0 game vs. UCLA with BYU being the victor.

        The games vs. Texas and Oklahoma come next in excitement for me. Texas having been played in Texas and Provo. The Oklahoma game being played in the new Dallas Cowboy Stadium. The P5 team that I fear most is Florida State which we just can’t seem to compete against. L loved playing the likes of Penn State, Notre Dame, USC, Ga Tec, Mississippi. I even like playijng Va. and I will love playing West Va.

        I lived in Southern California, so I never missed a BYU Holiday Bowl game.

        On most things, our thinking is amazingly alike.

      • RohoSombrero

        Yup. I have all those games on DVD and put them on once in awhile. Having those great quarterbacks always gave us a chance to win, no matter how far down we were. Taysom Hill is exactly the same way. He can take games on his shoulders and pull out very unexpected wins. If he can just stay healthy this year!

      • Realistic Optimist

        Roho Sombrero,

        Before injury, Taysom Hill was on the Dark Horse Heisman Trophy Watch List. If he stays healthy, I believe he will rise above the Dark Horse Level in the Heisman Trophy Watch List this 2015 season. If he stays healthy, which is a 50/50 chance, since he has been injured half the years that he has already played at BYU, I do believe that he could come down to being one of our greats. I do believe that it will all come down to being healthy or not healthy for the full season. He could become our next Steve Young.

      • RohoSombrero

        i agree completely. I can’t wait for the opener. When you have Taysom, you always have at least a 50/50 chance. And if we do beat Nebraska, Hill will already be on the Heismann short list. *That* would be fun to watch. Even though we’ll probably disintegrate before the season ends. 🙂

      • Realistic Optimist

        Roho Sombrero,
        We must remenber that our years at the Holiday Bowl brought us our NC and our Miracle Bowl. It was a time that we also had Jim MacMann, Steve Young, and Robbie Bosco. We also had our Heisman Trophy Winner and Hall of Famer, Ty Detmer. It wasn’t as hard to win with this talent as it is today.
        We won our share of the games at that bowl. We had the talent and we had the coaching staff to get the most our to the talent we had.

      • Realistic Optimist

        Roho Sombrero,
        We think so much alike.

        We , BYU Cougars, became complacent playing all G5 teams when we were in a
        G5 conference, (WAC-MWC). We won most of the games. We were the Piolet ship of the conference.
        We won many conference championships. We were blindly, but confortably proud and had a lot of fun beating our own chest.

        We thought that we were as good as any team in the nation and that all schools should be proud to play us and be a part of our conference.
        When we played and lost to a P5 type team, it was just an off day. One can’t win all the games they play. We belonged with the big boys.

        Now as an Independent, we play many more P5 teams. We can’t understand why we haven’t been national ranked for the past serveral years.
        We can’t understand why we don’t win as many games. We think we are sliding down hill, when in fact, we, with the help of the P5 teams that we are
        now playing, are learning how to climb and fight our way up hill.

        We can never grown by only playing teams that we can beat. We can only grow by playing teams that we must suffer and fight and sometimes lose to.

        People some times have a problem realizing that SOS has much to do with the season outcome, be it 12-0, 11-0 or 7-5, 8-4. or maybe 6-6.

        if we are to grow and really get better, we must continue to play the better teams and be satisifide, for the time being, without having 8-4 seasons or better while
        we are learning how to play with the big boys.

  • roboto

    As to moving into a P5, anyone that believes it’s predicated completely on win/loss record is very short-sighted. If that were true BYU would have been in a P5 conference decades ago. They are who they are, they beat P5 times plenty; the question is whether a P5 conference will ever want everything that goes with BYU. Their W/L record is irrelevant.

    • Realistic Optimist

      roboto,

      You are correct that we have been well educated, well coached to play that first major P5 team of the season, and as an underdog, we come out on top with a big win. Teams that come to mind would include Texas, Oklahoma, Ga. Tex, the last time in Provo vs ND and I can name many others i.e Tex A/M etc.

      The problem is that this is the first major game that we get up for each season. After that, we lose to teams that we are favored to win.

      When one must play 9 P5 teams per season, that is a different story and with the much stronger competition, until such time that we are use to, trained to, coach to that higher level of competition, our success rate, the first few years, will not be nearly as great as it is now with the comparably weaker schedule. That is called growing pains. No pain, No gain. It is worth the growing pains to become relevant in this new era with all the new rules that put a much, much wider gap between those significant teams that get all the money and those insignificant team, that get very little money and the difference continues for ever to widen that gap.

  • TX Colonel

    I hope BYU never goes to P5. I love the variety in opponents and location that come with independence. Emphasis on quality non-conference schedule helps BYU scheduling. And when BYU finally makes it to NY6 or playoff, they don’t have to share the $ with a conference.

    • Realistic Optimist

      Tx Colonel
      Really??? We don’t have to share $8,000,000 with other teams as an independent?

      In the Big 12, if we were one of the 10 teams in that conference, yes indeed, they would need to share $200 million dollars in TV Revenue, leaving themselves a mere $20,000,000 per season. Do you think that it is really better to be selfish and keep all $8,000,000 of our Independent TV money than to share and by sharing, get $20,000,000 being in a P5 conference?

      All that extra money can get us better facilities, if needed, better coaching staff, if needed, and more importantly, it would give us a giant step towards better recruiting which would give us greater success on the filed.

      Never again would we have to hear, “Ya, another 10-2 season and another
      Bowl game, but look who they played.” “Anyone can program themselves a winning season and another bowl, but what does it mean when you play nobody that is really significant.”

  • IdontmindcuzUdontmatter

    Andy,
    I would modify your statement to say “BYU does not need to get into a Power 5 conference at this time.” But in the long run the talent/facilities/coaching gap could become much more significant due to the revenue disparity if they don’t get an invite.

    What I’m waiting to see is, how will this deregulation of CCG’s affect utah and Colorado? They were invited to the Pac10 specifically so the Pac would be able to have CCG’s and therefore a better chance of being included in the 4 team playoff. If this is no longer a requirement they could dump utah and Colorado and go back to 10 teams since neither team brings much revenue to their conference by themselves. Without those two teams each remaining team in the Pac would get a bigger slice of the pie, just like what the Big12 is doing.

    • Realistic Optimist

      IdontmindcuzUdontmatter

      Your post above, make much sense to me.
      Why ruin it with your
      “ I don’t mind, because you don’t matter”, posting name.

      You matter. I matter. Everyone that post on this site does matter because each posting may be stating what hundreds, if not thousands of others are thinking.

      If there are enough negative thinkers out there, our home game attendance suffers, Our team suffers, moral drops, and the team is in jeopardy of shutting down.

      I think that your post shows some serious intelligent thought and could become a possibility, especially Colorado. Utah, I believe , is at least as good as Washington State, Oregon State, and maybe as good or at least competitive with the Arizona Schools, and for sure, better than Colorado. This is just my opinion.

  • minnesotacoug

    Can’t say I will shed any tears if the BigXII gets left out of the playoff again this fall. All they are concerned with is the $$.

    • Realistic Optimist

      Minnesotacoug.

      Don’t worry about shedding anymore tears. The Big 12 can now legally get into a playoff regardless of how many or how few members they have in their conference. They no longer need to expand. They can keep all of their money without sharing what they have with two additional teams.

  • minnesotacoug

    P5…..who cares! 4-1 vs. Texas and 2-0 vs. Oklahoma.

    • Realistic Optimist

      Ya minnesotacoug.
      You forgot to mention the NC, the MB, and the HT.

      What does that have to do with being accepted as a P5 team?

      What does that have to do with getting $20 million per year for TV revenue in a P5 conference like the Big 12? Hey the $8 million is better than $1 million if we were in the MWC, but really??? Think about it.

      Yes the 4-1 verses Texas is great and adds to the fuel of our fire.
      Yes beating #3 Oklahoma in the brand new Cowboy Stadium adds more fuel to our fire. What now?

      Do we let that fire burn out or to we keep adding fuel to the fire until we become a P5 team with significance. I choose that over doing nothing and fade away into non significance.

  • Streeter

    It’s probably already been said, but BYU is missing out on the TV money they would get from being in a P5 conference. This is where they’re being left in the dust. If you’re realistic, how often will BYU (or anyone else) be playing for a National Championship? This isn’t about access, it’s about money. Money that goes towards facilities, recruiting, stadium upgrades, etc. Staying competitive.

    • Realistic Optimist

      Streeter,
      I agree with everything you said.
      If we never get another NC, that is okay with me. If we never get into the big 4 play off’s, that is okay too.

      I do want to be eligible to try to reach that goal, and I want to be one of the significant teams tyring to reach that goal.

      Otherwise, why watch BYU football when you can be at a game where they are seriously trying to ready themselves for being in the contest to be in a playoff that could give them a NC.

  • Ben Tanner

    BYU needs to recruit better. How? There are over 100,000 members of the church in Africa. Just like they created the Poly Pipeline, they need the African Pipeline. BYU has the fans, the facilities, the footprint, they just don’t have the quality players. If they would bolster their squad with the right genes, P5 would be a done deal. You simply cannot ignore a team that beats every other team, consistently, year in, year out. Africa, and Brazil are a treasure trove of possibilities. And believe you me, those members would love to come and play for BYU. Example: Ziggy Ansah.

    • Realistic Optimist

      Good idea Ben for some short term goals. I hope that someone acts of them.
      For me, I am more interested, for now, in the long term goal of being a legitimate
      P5 team and what we have to do, that is indeed within our reach to to make that long term goal come true.

  • RohoSombrero

    For all you proud and gloating Ute fans who think there’s no craziness North of BYU. I give you…dum dum dum….crazy!
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/05/07/1383170/-Utah-students-demand-evidence-from-professor-after-he-signs-absurd-letter-in-same-sex-marriage-case

    • RohoSombrero

      Whoops, I meant to put that on Monson’s article about BYU’s honor code. Doh! And no delete button either…